Curse

knives · Aug 12, 2005, 04:16 AM // 04:16

Well, as of now, I don't see a point in using a mesmer (primary) atleast in pve. Interrupts are overshadowed by rangers. Melee tanking is done by warriors (don't give me that "My IW can tank better than a real warrior, and do more damage too!" crap). Massive AoE is done by fire eles. Monks are obviously monks. Necros can become minion masters, putrid/tainted fleshers, blood support, curses etc. So...what can a mesmer do? They've got some interrupts, that charge slowly. They've got some shutdown stuff (diversion, powerblock, blackout). The only thing I can see them bieng unique for is energy denial, and with monsters, you never know who has higher base energy, and when will you expect them to run out.

Also don't say stuff like, you can go fast cast and only use ele or necro skills! Because that is not a mesmer imo. So, anyone going to convince me what the role of a mesmer is in PvE? (Besides looking cool. Don't get me wrong here, I love mesmers, they are my favorite class. But what can they contribute with THEIR skills that others cannot?)

Amused Observer · Aug 12, 2005, 05:03 AM // 05:03

I think a Mesmer is challenging to play effectively. An IW based Mes tank will focus on the illusion line, and carry Distortion (75% to evade attacks; unless you're carrying fancy warrior skills that can't be evaded like Swift Chop, the distorted Mes won't take damage from tanks), Clumsiness, Phantom Pain, Fragility combined with Soothing Image and Inspiration based Spirit of Shackles and Spirit of Failure. And if the Mes tank wants to be daring, a Blackout could be tossed in somewhere as well.

Amused Observer · Aug 12, 2005, 05:08 AM // 05:08

A dominant based Mes is also pretty awesome. a 140 damage backfire on an enemy spellcaster in PvE is cool. And don't underestimate Chaos Storm, the main AoE spell for Mes. The mantras also offer a lot of protection, and you don't even need to put in a single attribute point in inspiration to benefit.

S'laris · Aug 12, 2005, 08:40 AM // 08:40

That doesn't answer the question that knives was asking. I've noticed this recently myself and have been asking the same question as for what the heck is a Mesmer in PvE? It seems like it's becoming hard for people to understand the potential of a mesmer or at least they're not seeing it and I understand that. It's hard to get groups, except guild groups as a Mesmer.

This is just oppinion, no concrete stuff.

When someone plays a class other than a Mesmer, it would seem that an individual would notice actual physical damage being done (The health bars go down that you would actually notice), however, as Sebadoh stated when training to become a Mesmer is that we don't deal with things directly, but indirectly. The other 5 classes deals with things directly (Monks' Healing is direct) so they would notice the damage, but as a Mesmer, it relies on the actions of the NPC doing things that causes that indirect effect to become direct, thus being noticable only to Mesmers which other classes would not notice very often and I think this is *a* problem. This sort of points to why we're not picked up very often in groups.

The Mesmer class I believe may be the most challenging class in this game and it requires the player to actually understand how the game works in order to efficiently play the class and it takes awhile to get the full grasp of it.

Now to answer knives' question.

To be honest, I have just recently started a PvE Mesmer and only have much experience as one in PvP. It seems like for any person to choose this class is just for their enjoyment and let this class become experimental until the person figures something out on their own as how it's best to manage damage output with members of the party and dealing with encounters. This class feels more geared towards PvP than PvE but hopefully I'll figure something out that'll be effective enough and prove that mesmers can be effective in any group. I'm certainly looking forward to the end game.

I believe only people who have personally played a mesmer or have friends that understand that persons role will understand how the class works and allow mesmers to join the groups, other than that, I have yet to see once I get to the end game.

Schorny · Aug 12, 2005, 10:52 AM // 10:52

My soon to be deleted Me/N is focusing on energy drain. I have energy tap, energy drain, energy burn and ether feast with, so I have always enough energy for some big 'bang' and enemy bosses are really easy to kill, because they run out of energy pretty fast.

But most of the time I use necro skills. A Mesmer has its uses, but not everywhere. For example Cry of frustration and power block are great against hydras. So you need to constantly switch skills, which is sad. Only mission a mesmer really shines is thirsty river (the one where you have to kill all the priests).

I'm not really happy with a Mesmer in PvE it sounds much cooler than it really is

Allthough if learned to love hydras

Cymmina · Aug 12, 2005, 11:29 AM // 11:29

I'm not going to disagree with the general sentiment of this thread. Mesmers *are* the weakest profession for PvE. The majority of their skills are best suited for dealing with mage targets and require time to get the most benefit out of them. The average PvE fight is not long enough to get the full advantage of having a mesmer along (but who wants to have a 10 minute fight every minute for the duration of a mission?).

I love Diversion to death, disable a skill for ~50 seconds... but the average mob is dead in about 1/3 of that time. Distracting Shot is by far superior in PvE because it *also* interrupts the skill. To get the same thing, I would have to combine Diversion with Guilt/Shame (30 second recharge), and there aren't that many skills out there that take enough time for me to get two ~2 second casting time skills off.

Empathy is a great domination skill to use against melee, but any AoE elementalist makes it look like a sad joke, doesn't matter which target from the pack you hit. Half the time, henchmen kill my empathy target just as I'm finishing casting it.

That said, I feel the overall most useful mesmer in PvE is going to be focused on interrupting and skill denial or illusion. Sadly, the recharge on interrupting skills makes it difficult to remain useful for an entire fight... unless you want to Blackout most of the time and slip in your interrupt every 10 seconds. Unfortunately for me, since they changed the casting times of skills during beta, I'm not fast enough anymore to get off interrupts on <=1 second skills.

Also, Signet of Midnight + Plague Sending is a pretty good combination for PvE, if you aren't afraid of being in "touch" range.

βlitzkrieg · Aug 12, 2005, 11:37 AM // 11:37

Can't say a mesmer is any good in PvE at all, nope.

sleazeh · Aug 12, 2005, 01:41 PM // 13:41

If outright damage is what you wish for, some of the skill combinations that work off of fragility provide perhaps the highest spike output of any character in the game - more so than any meteor shower - somewhere around the 430 (armor ignoring) damage mark at maximum. The fragility based mesmer, altough limited in diversity, is the perhaps the most effective single enemy killer over a short duration....

*****
Let's see....unparalleled anti-caster, strong DoT, anti-melee capabilities, energy management to remain effective longer, (depending on build) heavy spike damage, speed debuffs, signet disabling.....

I find it strange that anyone would consider the mesmer class as being PvE ineffective. Perhaps its the lack of being an archetypal fanatasy/rpg class that swings a big sword or throws fireballs.

Personally, I think it's the Michael Flatly style of dancing that makes people uncomfortable having them around.

BigTru · Aug 12, 2005, 02:12 PM // 14:12

I just don't see why they had to give every creature an absurd, godly amount of energy, making it impossible for Energy-Denial/Inspiration Mesmers to be reasonable.

Nash · Aug 12, 2005, 02:18 PM // 14:18

Well, Mesmers can do a lot of conditional damage, and the conditions in PvE are static, so there's your damage potential. Shatter Hex is nice against hex mobs, Shatter Enchantment, Backfire, etc. That, and Conjure Phantasm is awesome in low level PvE.

BrandonIT · Aug 12, 2005, 02:31 PM // 14:31

Well, my Level 18 Mes/Mo is just now approaching Aurora Glade so I can't say I've played her a whole bunch.

Skills that I (personally) find useful in PvE:

Backfire - will either shut down Monk bosses or lower enemies will usually try to cast right through, killing them in two-three spells.

Empathy - Yeah, it's not great, but it's good to cast on the enemy your group is NOT targeting, so he can kill himself a little bit before the group gets to him.

Chaos Storm - Yeah, it's a poor-man's Firestorm but it does have the advantage of sucking energy out of any casters that try to cast while in it. PvE monsters rarely, if ever, try to move out of it.

Shatter Hex - useful when facing Wind Riders, Scarabs, and other hexing foes. 136 AoE damage is hard to ignore. Combine this with a quick Wastrel's Worry on a member of a large group of targets, and you can hit them pretty hard. Not sure about the energy/recharge times though. (Usually I forget to cast it though with everything else going on)

These I consider to be my staples in PvE. Others that I have carried at times include Leech Signet and Cry of Frustration to interrupt skills but their high-recharge (and high energy in CoF's case) usually mean I don't like to use them often.

I admit that I am fond of the Domination line and have not adequately explored other attribute-based builds (save for Ether Feast). Maybe there are better skills in the Illusion/Inspiration lines.

Epinephrine · Aug 12, 2005, 02:38 PM // 14:38

Mesmers are fine in PvE. A good mesmer packing the right skills makes life so much easier - don't leave home without Cry of frustration in many areas - you can shut down the apply poison by a newly dropped pack of Maguuma Spiders, knock out 3 Mahgo Hydras casting Meteor Showers or simply use it to interrupt a healing signet if that's all there is to do with it. Only my Ranger can deal with casters anywhere near as efficiently - I love the fact that some of the most dangerous spell throwers in the game are useless if a mesmer interrupts their big spells. Monk bosses are yummy candy, and the same is true of elementalists. I only wish that not every mesmer creature out there had 12 fast casting... it is next to impossible to try to hit a conjure phantasm even though I can hit 1 second spells fairly well, so I am assuming they all have buttloads of fast casting.

I typically have 3 interrupts on my skill bar, which is enough to shut down most opponents - between a Power Leak and an Energy Drain they're out 44+ energy and the cost of their spell, so that tends to take a caster type down a peg or two - if he's still got it in him for another spell Power Spike/Drain it and Ether Feast away his last few points of energy (whether or not you need the heal). All I know is that no group has ever complained about my mesmer being along, and the monk often has some big thanks, while the warriors pride themselves on having smacked down that monk boss...Yeah, you go, tough guys! Tailoring your spells to the area you explore is a must for a memser. We don't do that many things that are that visible, but good players notice and appreciate them. Bad players just think they are tougher than they really are, that they were luck the enemy didn't earthquake that time, or that the mission was really easy. I love Cry of Frustration purely for the swearing - at least your party knows you stopped something

If all Mesmer interrupts caused a similar effect I think you'd see a great deal more mesmer love going on...

Quote:

Originally Posted by βlitzkrieg

Can't say a mesmer is any good in PvE at all, nope.

Rofl.... Yeah, noob it up! Wa/Mos and El/Mos to the rescue! *snicker*

Hopefully you are sarcastic... I notice your listed toon is a mesmer

octaviancmb · Aug 12, 2005, 03:01 PM // 15:01

The "point" of a Mesmer in PvE is the same as the point of any other profession: to destroy monsters. They're *amazingly* effective at it. The problem I see a lot of people have with them is they don't look beyond the "shutdown" archetype. If all you want to do with your mesmer is cripple and kill casters, then sure, you'll be great at it, but you'll be bored by the time you reach Yak's Bend (and Rangers are arguably better at it)!

In the early part of a Mesmer's life, concentrate on killing bosses, because you're stuck with Dominate and Illusion. Once you have enough skills open to you (say around Kryta), your skill bar should be changing based on each mission and each area. Once you're past ascention, your skill bar should change based on each group you're running with (and what you've unlocked).

In my experience, Mesmers use their secondary profession a lot more than other primary professions use their secondaries. But that's okay, because being a Mesmer means you're going to use that secondary profession better and more efficiently than the primary profession, anyway. You'll be casting spells faster, always have energy, etc. Consider the Me/El, who 6 seconds into a battle is already on to his third spell; the (much maligned in this thread) IW Warrior who cannot be hit, does terrific damage, and can still stop casters in their tracks; the Mes/Nec who in addition to absolutely slaughtering groups of monsters, also keeps everyones health and energy high; or finally the Me/Mo who puts out an endless supply of heals (because he's never out of energy, you see) while constantly degenning and/or interrupting the enemy. Yeah, I can see how none of these abilities would interest a group. Nothing at all useful here. And those are just the most obvious builds.

But, you say, you want to use a *Mesmer*, not some *Mesmer/something* hybrid. Why you would want this, I have no idea, since every character I've ever seen is a hybrid character, but anyway. Mesmers, functioning entirely independantly of any other profession, still rule. Their regal ownership of the game is more situational and far more subtle than the more straight-forward classes, however. Consider hexes. A Mesmer can turn both his own and the enemy's hexes into *hundreds of points of damage* by shattering/breaking/getting rid of them. These *hundreds of points of damage* have no visual impact on the game, so you likely will never, ever know a Mesmer is literally destroying whole groups of monsters. I mean, you're hitting the monster with a sword, or casting firestorm on them. Yeah...you know, killing fast... /sarcasm. Consider groups of melee monsters, pause and wonder why they all have those little grey triangles in their health bar, be amazed that your stances are preventing almost every attack/that your Monks are the best you've ever known/the Necro must be up to whatever-it-is-Necros do, but little do you realize the "lowly" Mesmer in your group is keeping the WHOLE GROUP BLIND (while doing lots of damage to them).

Finally, imagine, if you will, a character so good at working with your group that he makes the whole group better. If you can picture such a character, you'll see a Mesmer there.

CMB

knives · Aug 12, 2005, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cymmina

I'm not going to disagree with the general sentiment of this thread. Mesmers *are* the weakest profession for PvE. The majority of their skills are best suited for dealing with mage targets and require time to get the most benefit out of them. The average PvE fight is not long enough to get the full advantage of having a mesmer along (but who wants to have a 10 minute fight every minute for the duration of a mission?).

I love Diversion to death, disable a skill for ~50 seconds... but the average mob is dead in about 1/3 of that time. Distracting Shot is by far superior in PvE because it *also* interrupts the skill. To get the same thing, I would have to combine Diversion with Guilt/Shame (30 second recharge), and there aren't that many skills out there that take enough time for me to get two ~2 second casting time skills off.

Empathy is a great domination skill to use against melee, but any AoE elementalist makes it look like a sad joke, doesn't matter which target from the pack you hit. Half the time, henchmen kill my empathy target just as I'm finishing casting it.

That said, I feel the overall most useful mesmer in PvE is going to be focused on interrupting and skill denial or illusion. Sadly, the recharge on interrupting skills makes it difficult to remain useful for an entire fight... unless you want to Blackout most of the time and slip in your interrupt every 10 seconds. Unfortunately for me, since they changed the casting times of skills during beta, I'm not fast enough anymore to get off interrupts on <=1 second skills.

Also, Signet of Midnight + Plague Sending is a pretty good combination for PvE, if you aren't afraid of being in "touch" range.

Thank you everyone for the replies.

This is what I was thinking of when I started this thread. Sure the skills are great, but use them once, and wait 20-30s for the recharge, and you just sit there attacking with your wand/staff. Also, once you use a "big" skill such as backfire, say on a stone summit sage, he usually is dead before it can really cause some damage. Yeah, interupts are fun, but you can only use them like once per battle as things usually die before then (excluding bosses, there is where mesmers really shine). I've tried IWer mesmer for PvE, and it wasn't as fun as it should have been. I play a shutdown mesmer in PvP though, really fun.

Glasswalker · Aug 12, 2005, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Playing as a Warrior in PvE lately, the thing that bothers me most are Mesmer enemies. I have no counter. I have 0 energy, when I attack I go below 0 and take damage, and my health is on constant degen. (Whine, whine, whine.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by S'laris

being noticable only to Mesmers which other classes would not notice very often and I think this is *a* problem. This sort of points to why we're not picked up very often in groups.

Ah. Now I see. The problem is other peoples' ignorance about how effective you are. That one I can't help with. Mesmers are very effective in PvE. A point of difficulty comes in when you have more than 1 healer in a mob. Everyone can focus on one, and perhaps keep the mob-warriors from killing your healers too, but that other healer (or 2) is making things difficult. The mesmer steps in and denies healer#2-3 any energy, stops them from casting, and suddenly there is no problem.

It is true that you can't see too much of that effect directly. It is too bad we don't see the enemy's Energy bar, so that it is more obvious. But they do have energy limits. The problem is that they also have signets. That's where these "ungodly amounts of energy" come from.

Spirit Shackles are effective at keeping trolls/minotaurs, etc from using attack skills. Virulence is one of the most effective skills in the game, when used properly (think teamwork). Hex Breaker does wonders. Mesmers ineffective? Stop playing with newbs. Maybe the problem is that Durham is ineffective. Alesia is also pretty ineffective, but you need a monk, right.

Kishin · Aug 12, 2005, 05:47 PM // 17:47

PvE Mesmer > Thirsty River.

Or any situation which remotely involves a spellcaster boss, especially a Monk.

My guild group went through PvE the first time with one of our players playing a Mesmer primary, and he was an incredible asset to the team.

Plus, unlike real people, PvE mobs are incredibly stupid, and will cast through Backfire, Diversion, Guilt or any other hex-based savagery a Mesmer can bring to bear. Plus, Shatter Hex/Enchantment are always fun.

Bleidd · Aug 12, 2005, 06:56 PM // 18:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glasswalker

Virulence is one of the most effective skills in the game, when used properly (think teamwork).

Virulence is a Necromancer spell, correct?

QuixotesGhost · Aug 12, 2005, 06:57 PM // 18:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bleidd

Virulence is a Necromancer spell, correct?

Yes, but you combo it with Fragility, a mesmer spell.

Glasswalker · Aug 12, 2005, 08:34 PM // 20:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuixotesGhost

Yes, but you combo it with Fragility, a mesmer spell.

Exactamundo. That's where the teamwork part comes in. But I should have been more clear in stating that.

Phades · Aug 12, 2005, 10:13 PM // 22:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kishin

PvE Mesmer > Thirsty River.

Or any situation which remotely involves a spellcaster boss, especially a Monk.

My guild group went through PvE the first time with one of our players playing a Mesmer primary, and he was an incredible asset to the team.

Plus, unlike real people, PvE mobs are incredibly stupid, and will cast through Backfire, Diversion, Guilt or any other hex-based savagery a Mesmer can bring to bear. Plus, Shatter Hex/Enchantment are always fun.

Maelstorm is so much easier to use, but using diversion, sig of humility and mark of subversion works as well. The problem usually comes when people try to cap word of healing, but go for the boss first instead of killing the priest first and shutting down the boss.